Transcript of the entire TV show Knevel & Van den Brink in which Rutte said he'd decriminalize 'holocaust denial'

  Knevel & Van den Brink
  Mark Rutte - VVD
  Hamas Hamas, Jews into the gas
  Gregorius Nekschot Cartoon

Prophet Muhammed deflowering Aisha
  Ernst Hirsch Ballin Paul Velleman
  Ernst Hirch Ballin
Justice Minister
Paul Velleman
  Theo van Gogh - Halal Butchered

VVD party leader Mark Rutte made headlines because he wanted to restore free speech in Holland, but most of the local as wel as the international media focussed entirely on his one short remark about the sacred cow of the western world, the holocaust.

In the original TV broadcast Knevel & Van den Brink which gave rise to the disproportional commotion which once again unveiled the hypocracy that increasingly engulfs the western world, he touched on many more subjects though, such as the murder of Theo van Gogh, the political persecution of cartoonist Gregorius Nekschot, and Muslim hate preachers.

I think it is only fair that his remarks be presented in their original setting of this TV interview.

Here follows a rough translation of a transcript of the program

TV Host: Mark Rutte, today you have presented a plan aiming at expanding freedom of expression, let's look at some video footage of a demonstration, and if you listen well you can here what is being shouted in the crowd.

(Clip showing Muslim extremists and Antifa demonstrating in Holland)

Demonstrators shouting: 'Intifada, Intifada, Free Palestine, Hamas, Hamas, Jews into the gas'

TV Host: In your Holland, can one say that, Hamas, Hamas, Jews must have their gas?

Perhaps it's better that you know what people say this nonsense because than you are able to combat it in the debate. They are of course terrible statements.. If it can be said, I think perhaps in a demonstration such as this yes, but if a radical Imam calls every Friday from a mosque to help the Jews to the gas, that could be a situation where it could lead to violence towards such a community, and than it would not be allowed.

So it depends on the setting in this situation I think.

TV Host: You are saying: Not everything is permissible, inciting to violence is not allowed?

No, one can never incite to violence, but what causes me great concern is freedom of expression in Holland, exactly one year ago cartoonist Gregorius Nekschot was lifted from his bed by a team of ten police officers. This is the man who makes these crazy cartoons, once in a while I talk to him on the phone, and still the public prosecutor is preparing a case against him, now I heard from such a person what such a thing does to a person. In Holland, we thought it would never happen here, there
is a knock on your door and there are ten men asking you to come with them, because you produce drawings which apparently are found so insulting that we arrest you because of that.

TV Host: It was the police who arrested him on orders from the Prosecutors office wasn't it, it happened last year?

Yes, okay these officers did their duty, but the prosecutor gave the orders, the justice minister had conferred with the prosecutors office. As I said in parliament then and what I still maintain is that it looked like a political arrest. I find that very serious, but we also had the case of Theo van Gogh in 2004. The reaction of a number of parties was, that now we must tighten blasphemy laws when Theo van Gogh was murdered.

Also completely wrong of course. What I think we need in Holland, is that if you and I disagree, we fight each other with arguments. Never with violence, but also not in court, as little in the courts as possible.

TV Host: You are saying that now it happens often that people don't dare to say things they would like to say?

That's the way it is in Holland you notice now, and that of course has something to do with the fact that regrettably there is a small group among the Muslim population that radicalizes or has tendencies towards fundamentalism, and it is exactly such a group that also expresses itself in a very violent way against people who speak harsh words about Islam, and there are various people who are saying, yes we feel ourselves inhibited in our expressions, I find that very bad.

I think that we would come farther as a nation all together, that it makes you stronger, also those who came from somewhere else who came here, the aliens would get stronger when they learn to deal with these kinds of opinions.

TV Host: You suggest a number of changes of the law, and there is still work being done on that, what will be allowed what is not allowed now? Could you mention a concrete example of something which is forbidden now and will be allowed later?

Yes, for example now there is something called group-insult in the law. So what one sees now, the charges, the Amsterdam court has told the prosecutor that they should prosecute Wilders anyway because of his statements about Islam. What was really said is, I don't like your jacket Mr. Knevel (TV-Host), and then the Amsterdam court says, now you are insulting Mr. Knevel, not the jacket, but Mr. Knevel, one says something about Islam, and so you insult the people who follow Islam.

TV Host: Is not that bad?

In this case I guess so..

So this is the so called indirect insult, parliament wants to add that, while it already is in the law that group-insult is not allowed.

(Sentence omitted - only understandable for Dutch insiders)

I also think that if things can be said, that doesn't mean that they must be said. That's being civilized isn't it.

  Who really 'denies the holocaust'?
(Image not part of TV-program added Balder)
  Mark Rutte - Mein Kampf allowed
  Homosexuality is damaging to society
  Imam El Mundi: Leads to exinction
  Klaus Bondam - Gay Mayor of Copenhagen
(Image not part of TV-program - Balder)
  Bondam: I don't think one is born with homosexuality. I was surrounded by woman in my youth and had a weak father.. B.T.

We don't sit here and [defame each other] we try to keep it civilized. But if somebody chooses to do that with the most scathing expressions than I prefer that he does so, the same with the well known story of holocaust denial.

TV Host: Is that allowed?

Well there are idiots who deny the holocaust, I would want to know who that is, then I can show them; boys, I got a whole library full of evidence, and there are still people alive who went through all those horrible things, or lost members of their family, let's look at the facts.

And not forbid Mein Kampf anymore?

Yes indeed. I am a historian, I never understood, it's a ridiculous book, but if one forbids Mein Kampf, one also gives others the opportunity to say, we want to forbid the Koran, what I find just as idiotic.

TV Host: So Mein Kampf can just be published in Holland for what you care?

Yes, alright, I think that is allowed, and of course hope that would lead to discussion and that that is all wrong, but then we can just talk about that with each other, and that strengthens society.

I want Holland to be a strong country in all respects, that we can do something together, and I think that is possible.

TV Host: Let's look at another example of what happened in Holland around this theme.

Video footage: Imam EL Mundi

Homosexuality is dangerous for society in general, and especially for the Dutch I think. If this phenomenon spreads among youngsters, among boys as well as girls, this will lead to extinction.

Homosexuality will not be limited to those who have the illness, but can spread.

TV Host: So the VVD thinks that in the future you can say the most terrible things about homosexuals?

Now that's a question [name unintelligible] and I today presented a draft of how that proposal should look, and there is one very basic and difficult point and that has to do with discrimination. What we never will allow is discrimination at entrances of discotheques or in the job market. That can of course never be allowed.

Of course there is the risk that if an Imam, I guess this is an Imam?

TV Host: That is the Imam El Mundi

If such an Imam makes these ludicrous statements, that could lead to certain groups feel excluded, groups that have certain properties, man or woman, white or black, hetero or homo, all these things they are born with and can't help.

This happens to people, you have this skin color, you have this sex, you have this sexual orientation.

And so that is something we are talking about with people who are reading with us, we are involved in that discussion.

TV Host: But it will be impossible to take action against these Imams this way, isn't it?

Radical Imams allowed? Can say everything according to the VVD?

As long as you don't incite to violence?

No, no because even if discrimination would not be forbidden concerning this point, we can still take action against these Imams on two other grounds. In the first place if he does not have the Dutch nationality, he can be expelled because he goes against integration, the second is that we know from the security services that in a small number of mosques there is a tendency towards radicalization, which is directly contradictory to the interests of the state and who are really being preparing for violence. On that basis we can still deport these Imams.

But incitement to hatred will be allowed by you. You want to strike the paragraph about inciting to hatred?

I want to strike the paragraph, and where it doesn't lead to violence against people, I think that if people have these kind of convictions, I would rather know and be able to discuss with them.

  Geert Wilders & Rabbi

Israel's leading rabbi has warned Dutch populist politician Geert Wilders that his party's support for a ban of ritual slaughter of animals in the Netherlands is "anti-Semitic" and could drive away the country's Jewish community. Manfred Gerstenfeld about Wilders: "Are you going to support a guy who is at forefront of the anti-Semitism movement in Europe?"
Israel’s chief rabbi warns Dutch populist politician over kosher slaughter ban
Manfred Gerstenfeld: Wilders, Israel and the Jews

TV Host: Aren't you scared of a harshening of society?

Have a look at internet forums to see how much terrible scolding and name calling is going on in Holland.

And yet you say, come on boys, in the future you can say everything about everybody, as long as you don't incite to violence.

Well, stop, in the first place I say, there always is a first limit inside yourself.

TV Host: Yes but many people don't have that … [..] Mr. Rutte!

Luckily most people do have that limit

TV Host: A lot of people don't!

Most people, wait a minute, let us first agree together, most people do have that limit; that is very important. It is personal responsibility, self censorship, not the kind which is imposed on you by other people with threats of violence etc., but the kind you impose on yourself. You don't have to say everything you'd want to say..

But your idea that if it were allowed to come with extreme statements, that that would lead to a harshening of society.

I am convinced that the opposite will happen. What you see now in Holland, with the rise of a small group of Muslims that radicalizes, or becomes too fundamentalist, there is the risk of a second multicultural drama. We have seen that in the years 1980 and 1990 things were not talked about, things were covered up, things were not mentioned, of which I would say, it would be good to be able to discuss these things, than one is able to refute them.

There is one example in the world where that happens...

TV Host: Which is?

  Anti gay protest - Washington, USA
  Fags are worthy of death,

that's the standard of God!
  Mark Rutte - Free Speech!
  Hans Neven School director

That example is America.

TV Host: Let's listen to what is said in America:

(Footage of Christian demonstrators in the US)

Do you think homosexuals should be put to death?

yes that's the standard of God!

So you believe it?

Fags are worthy of death, that's the standard of God!

TV Host: Well I am ashamed on behalf of Gods voice, I would like to comment, but all of this can be said according to you?

Last Saturday or Sunday we had a similar situation in the city of Den Bosch, even with the current legislation, so with the current legislation in the area of free speech such things are possible in Holland, and I find all of that terrible, but let's get one thing clear:

These are small splinters. What luckily is the case in America, is that the major part of the population, because they are used to a relaxed way they handle free speech, are able to see that these are a bunch of idiots, extremists, who are better kept on the fringe of society.

And at least we know who they are, you know who has these convictions, so at least we can engage in discussion, but I am worried about it Holland

TV Host: Yes you know who they are, but you can't do anything, at most you can discuss with them..

Yes but isn't that what we want? You can make a decision either to ignore them or discuss with them, that's the choice you make, but at least you prevent that in cases like this the court would have to decide about it.

Hans Neven (school director, another guest): Can I ask something?

TV Host: Make it short.

Isn't it an illusion to think that people will think of not saying the most harsh things because of rationality and arguments?

What you want is that we discuss, and that we convince people with arguments?

But isn't it an illusion to think that that is going to work?

And in demonstrations and then...

TV Host: You may answer with one sentence Mr. Rutte, we have used up our time.

The crux of the matter is that it is about small groups of people, and I want that Holland because we can speak with each other about all kinds of matters, we make place for the oxygen of that debate helping the country to advance as well.

What is done otherwise is covering up because you are afraid of a small group that perhaps abuses it and shouts terrible things.

TV Host: your point of view is clear Mr. Rutte.

End of program.

TV show Knevel & Van den Brink May 26 2009 - Video | Alle info - Mark Rutte transcriptie interview Knevel & Van den Brink - Holocaust ontkenning



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